Hey, gang! I'm so excited to get these discussions going again! So, let's waste no time!
Let the discussion begin!! Here is the first question I pose to you for civil debate:
We all know that Doodle was less than well. However, we also know that Brother was admittedly (and often purposely) cruel to him. All of these things worked together where Doodle's well-being is concerned.
Think about the story as a whole, all of the information you're provided, the motivation and actions of all of the characters, and the unhappy outcome. Then respond to this...
Was Doodle's death Brother's fault, or was it simply a tragic playing out of an inevitable conclusion?
If you do not agree with either, feel free to take your own, personal stance.
Be sure to support your responses!
Also, don't forget that in order to receive full credit, you must both POST and RESPOND to a post.
Happy Discussing!
I believe that Doodle died not because of his genetic weakness and deformity, but because Brother, had put too much stress on him. The huricane was just the straw that broke the camel's back. Brother made Doodle do many things, like torture him in a wagon, force him to walk, and force him to touch the coffin they had made for him because they thought he would die soon after birth, if not already dead. And if you were a baby and genetically handicapped, how would that make you feel? Having your brother, whom you might idolize treat you like scum? And the doctor said Doodle couldn't get too hot, too cold, or too stressed. There's that word again, stress. In the book, when doodle was learning to walk, he said "I just can't do it." but who pushed him on against his will? Brother that's who. Now, i will not lie, and say the disease didnt have anything to do with it, but i believe it had a miniscule part to play in Doodle's highly unfortunate demise. Because i know, having someone you look up too, who makes you do things do that you dont want to do, it really hurts you, it does.Brother was blinded by his own pride, to the point, that he started he was doing this for doodle, but he really wasn't it was for his own selfish little self, and Brother is to blame.
ReplyDeleteI agree that Doodle died because of his brother. He had forced him to do too many things that he was not capable of and he just couldn't take it anymore. And yes, the disease did have a lot to do with it but it was definitely Brother who caused his early death at that point.
DeleteI agree and disagree. I agree that Doodle did have too much pressure being put on him. It must have been like torture for Doodle, and he shouldn't have been treated the was by his own brother. Brother only acted out of self-gain and that he didn't want to be embarressed by his crippled brother.
DeleteI disagree only because I feel that Brother was very young and didn't know what he was getting himself into. Yes, he did realize that he was hurting Doodle at some points, but he didn't realize how terrible until he actually saw Doodle dead
I completely agree with Connor that Doodle was pushed to hard by his brother leading up to his death. Without his brother Doodle wouldn't have been pressured into doing things that he couldn't do, like running. Doodle could have lived longer if his brother hadn't tried to teach him how to "be normal."
DeleteGrace Fung
1 period
First poster! woooo! (Accomplishment!)
ReplyDeleteWoo hoo!
ReplyDeleteNicole Castiglioni Period 1
ReplyDeleteI think that Doodle died because of his brother pushing him past his limits. Along with his unstable health condition, Brother often forced Doodle to do things that he knew was not good for him. The doctor had specifically said that Doodle was not allowed to get to hot or cold, and he wasn't allowed to run or over exert himself. Brother made Doodle do several horrible things like touch his own coffin, swim, fall down, and run. When they were trying to get away from the storm, Doodle fell behind because of his inability to run. He was becoming both too hot and too tired. His heart was racing and it just couldn't go on any longer. I believe the death of Doodle was because of his brother pushing him too far.
I beleive that there is some truth value in what Connor said but I feel that it was a tragic playing out of an inevitable conclusion except for the fact that the process was speeded up by Brother's actions at that time. However, when I say Brother, I don't mean the acutal Brother but I am reffering to his pride and ego. I think that it was his pride and ego that was acting and that he was simply the physical medium that completed the action. The aiding of the inevitable process began when there was a storm brewing and when, "Doodle's and [his] plans had come to naught" which awakened that, "Streak of cruelty within [him]"(Hurst 475). The failure had incited his feeling of crushed pride which ultimately made him run away from Doodle in the storm which made Doodle over excited which popped his heart. So in conclusion, it was Brother's pride that brought about Doodle's demise and he was just on his knees at the mercy of his pride which proved to be very merciless.
ReplyDeleteWhen Brother ran away, Doodle's heart was already beating at a high rate that was almost at the tipping point. But, when Brother left him, that was basically "the straw that broke the camel's back" like Connor said. Brother definitely caused the death by pushing Doodle, physically, too hard and leaving him behind. I don't think leaving him behind was the only aspect that killed Doodle, though.
DeleteAliya Noorani
DeletePeriod 1
I agree with Shifan. Brother's pride made Doodle believe that he could do any thing that a child his own age could do. Whenever brother wasn't pleased he would get mad just as any other sibling would. Brother was also very young to understand that Doodle could not do everything that was expected.
I agree with Shifan and Aliya. I like Shifan's conclusion which shows the pride of Brother is the killer. Brother's action is not completely wrong. It may just give too much overwhelming force. He is the only one who believes Doodle is just a normal child with bad health condition. Brother teaches Doodle to be a normal child(with his selfishness). However, when Doodle does bad or not being expected, Brother becomes mean and rude, and causes him to run away when Doodle is yelling. It also explains Aliya's idea that Brother was too young to know that Doodle is too weak to do any strong activities.
DeleteI think it's all Brother's fault and some Doodle's as well. The doctors may have said to baby him all his life and when he was born he may have been deathly sick, but he got through, albeit pretty slow. If he could have made it so many years without dying, he could have made it the rest of his life. The audacity of Brother to think that he could play God and control what Doodle could and could not do was the thing that killed him. His disease, I think, had very little if anything to do with it. Obviously Doodle had to die, as we all do, but i think it wouldnt have made a difference if he was sick of not. If you push even the strongest man on earth hard enough, he is bound to fall. As humans we can't possible say that we are invincible. It's just not possible to be a human and still be able to agree and follow everyone's whims.
ReplyDeleteIt's Doodle's fault because he never even wanted to sway from the mentality that he was sickly and weak. I think that no matter how sick you are, if you have the mentalpower to say that you arent sick, you will get better. For example, my grandmother, being 85 years old and having hypertension, alzheimer's, a next to useless hand, and a hurt knee is still working for her family. Granted she does easy things, but she still cooks food, does housework,and everyhting else she can do. Every time we try to dissuade her, she comes back with the same reponse "Im fine. I can do it" and she does. there has not been one time where she has not been able to follow through.
In conclusion, I think it is more Brother's fault than anyone else's but it is also partly Doodle's fault.
I agree with awan on this one. I think that it should also partly be doodle's fault becasue doodle should have know way better than to just follow his brother(Who mad him touch his OWN COFFIN)into any random situation. Doodle should have thought that decision out much more, and should have not let his pride get in the way of his life's decisions.
DeleteI am already begnning to get sick of the pride theme
rohan w
1st period.
@Rohan and Awan
DeleteI am aware of the reason why you guys believe that Doodle is partially at fault for his own death. You think if he hadn't followed his brother and had believed in himself, he wouldn't have died, right? Well, here is my argument. Say, you were in Doodle's position. You are disabled, and you have "Brother" as your brother. He is the one and only person you are closest in age to, because you have no friends from school or neighbors, and you have no other siblings. It is only natural for you to learn from him, right? Even if he is wrong, you would still follow him. You can't do what is right or wrong if you don't KNOW what is right or wrong. Doodle really only had one close person to look up to , and that was Brother. If anyone were in this position, I'm sure they would use the person they are most closest to as their role model. It was only a matter of fate that Doodle had a selfish big brother like this narrator here. If this is the case, can u really say Doodle's death was Doodle's fault?
I agree with you, John. Even though it is Doodle’s fault to some extent, let’s not forget that Doodle is just a little kid who is born in an environment that counteracts his growth. The society around Doodle had never believed that he could crawl, walk, or do any of the things that a normal boy could do. In fact, when he was born, everybody thought he would die. When everybody else loses hope, you become disappointed in yourself as well. Doodle is a child who has not yet developed judgment skills, so he is greatly influenced by the society around him. It is not that Doodle doesn’t want to live, but he was forced to believe that he couldn’t do it. I would agree, though, that if Doodle had believed, then he might have carried on and became “close to normal.”
DeleteEven though I disagree with you, Awan, I do like your concept of Doodle’s death partially being his own fault. In my point of view, Brother’s acts against Doodle almost seemed like bullying. When Doodle knew that Brother had been too hard, he should have told his parents about it. It is easier to let an adult to solve this kind of problem than anything else. If Doodle had talked to an adult, then he wouldn’t have been bullied by his Brother.
Overall, I disagree with you, Awan, on how Doodle could have believed in himself, but I do like your concept and evaluation.
Scott Cao, 5th per.
Although Doodle was severely handicapped at birth, the moral blame for his death ultimately falls upon his brother. I agree that Doodle's birth defects played a part in his unfortunate death, but brother's incessant and torturous attempts at getting Doodle to be "normal" caused even greater harm. Many people living with disabilites far worse than what Doodle suffered lived fruitful and self- satisfying lives. Take Helen Keller for exmample, whom all of you should know. Born healthy, she became very sick and eventually lost her eyesight and became deaf, but still she persevered on, never giving hope. In the end, she had set up many schools for children and adults who were living like her, without sight or sound. Doodle could have lived as close to a normal life as he can, and probably would have enjoyed a leisurely life in the future had it no been for brother. It was brother who came in and taunted, forced, and cruelly manipulated Doodle, all for his own personal gain. Many people might say that it wasn't brother's fault, and that he only played a small indirect role. But did Hitler only play an indirect role in the brutal killing of so many people? Just because he himself was not the sole driving force? Is the father who beat his wife to the point that the wife committed suicide not guilty just because he was not the one that killed her?
ReplyDeleteAwan Ali's comment was interesting in that he presented the medial position, that it was partly Doodle's fault and partly Brother's fault. Also, he used the argument that being sick and weak doesn't mean that you won't make it through tough predicaments, but used it for both sides of his argument.
Hans Li
Period 5
Yes i did use it for both because who can really know what actually killed him in the end right?
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteHello, I strongly affirm Hans's remark. He highlights a fundamental concept that this matter incorporates - the presence of potential in any individual.
DeleteIn the story, Doodle is portrayed as a disadvantaged, meager child who shows little energy and ability, one with few outlooks but an existent potential. There have been innumerable children born with similar conditions in the course of human history, yet some wither and die, while others successfully develop, as in the case of Helen Keller.
Now, in the Scarlet Ibis, Doodle's brother fails to develop this potential, as a natural result of his own interests and
concerns. This disposition of his brother forbids the healthy growth of Doodle, ultimately causing his death.
Wilbur Li
Fifth Period
I agree with Shifan also, what i failed to stated was when i blamed brother, i did indeed mean Brother as an egotistical term, because in the end it practically spoon feeds us that Brother feels bad for what he thinks he did, even though he might not have, but the one who feels sad for what he did, is what i believe is the "real" Brother.
ReplyDeleteBrother thinks he did it, but did he really do it? Could brother have controlled the fact that Doodle had a weak heart? Doodle was running away from the storm and woul have kept going even if Brother hadn't run ahead of him.
DeleteYou have a point there Kennedy, i dont think brother was solely responsible, because, as you stated, he couldn't control the fact that Doodle had heart problems, but i still maintain that if Brother had not put so much stress on Doodle as he did, Doodle probably would have made it into the house. But i can totally see where you are coming from.
DeleteWell i guess if Brother had been there he could have helped him get to the house and potentially have saved him
DeleteYeah, but your response was well-founded with logic, and i wasn't trying to make you be defensive if i did, i was merely saying i agree with what you said, but i also added my idea. i am sorry if i offended you in any way.
DeleteNo not at all! I got what you we're saying and saw that Brother could have helped him.
DeleteOk i am glad, i thought i had annoyed you, and i hate annoying people. And i can get pretty competitive, so, yeah..... i am glad.
Deletei think my internal computer clock is wack, look at the time i posted, and i know i posted after you, but on my screen it says that you posted at 445pm and i postd at 237pm when it is really 441pm on my comp clock, so i am confused. what times did it say i posted on your screen?
DeleteI think all the posting times are like messed up.. And haha have you seen my friends? Anyways the story makes references to both people being responsible so it's pretty much just your opinion. And it says like 2:44 on mine.
DeleteI feel that Doodle's death was not all of Brother's fault, but most of it was. Doodle was being pushed to hard by Brother to learn how to walk and even run. On the night of the hurricane, Brother should've waited for Doodle, but he instead only thought of himself and deserted him. Doodle may have died anyway from anxiety, but at least Brother wouldn't have thought that it was mostly his fault that way and probably wouldn't have regreted it as much.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I think that Doodle's family didn't think he was going to live very long, and were probably shocked that he did. Doodle probably wouldn't have lived for very many more years, but he wasn't given any chance because Brother didn't help him and ran away.
Emily Burrows
5th Period
So your saying both?
Deleteyes, but I think it is more brother's fault
DeleteBecause he put strain on him? The storm was doing that not him. I'm not defending Brother, because he is truly a dispicable person and should feel deeply guilty for treating his brother like he did, but he wasn't making him run.
DeleteNo, when I say putting strain on him, I mean when he repeatedly tried to make him walk and run. Also, I said it was patially Doodle's disease and condition, but it was mostly Brother's fault for deserting Doodle during the hurricane
DeletePooja Patel Period 1
DeleteI agree with you because you can't blame Brother for everything because he didn't expect Doodle's heart to burst.
I think that while Brother did push him to his limit that his disease has a lot to do with his death. Most normal children can run even while in stress. Your heart naturally speeds up to pump your oxygen filled blood to your muscles so you can run. His heart wasn't strong enough to work properly and gave out on him as he tried to keep up with his brother. Brother was very cruel to him when he pushed him further than what he could physically do. He was very sel centere and only cared about himsel and not about the well being of Doodle. The strain of Brother pushing him definitely hurt Doodle but in the end it was his disease that killed him.
ReplyDeleteI agree that the disease hurt him more than with out one, but I think it was more brother that killed him, then the disease. Brother chose not to go back for Doodle
DeleteThe way yo ushowed your evidence and research in this makes COMPLETELY agree with you! But I also agree with Emily ^ I believe if brother had played his part and helped Doodle and didn't leave him, he might've had a better chance. Of course I see your statement still is quite valid.
DeleteThat sounds so weird when I say out loud..
-Reshad
The kid that sits diagonally behind you!! (:
Oh my lord, that comment sounds so weird. I meant you. and I meant makes me* COMPLETELY.
Delete#awkward. not really..
Julian Pham
ReplyDelete1st period
I feel that Doodle's tragic death wasn't the Brother's fault. If anything, everything that the Brother did was for Doodle's benefit, although he did it for selfish reasons. Everything that Brother did helped Doodle to become more fit. I believe that the exercises that Doodle went through actually strengthened Doodle overall.
If Brother hadn't worked Doodle, I think that he might've actually died sooner. Everyone knows this cliche, "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger," and that's probably what happened. Doodle was bound to die had Brother not pushed him to overcome his crippled body. At the time of his death, Doodle was the strongest that he could've been, showing that he could have died sooner had Brother not pushed him to succeed.
Even if Brother didn't run away from Doodle, his heart could've arrested anyways on their way home. Sure the panic caused by Brother abandoning him might've killed him, but he most likely would've succumbed to death anyways. It just sped up the fast approaching process. Everything that could have been done was, so I don't blame Brother for Doodle's unfortunate death. If Brother hadn't forced Doodle to practice and ignore the doctor's advice, then Doodle being crippled and useless for his entire "life" feels wasteful and pointless. It's not a life at all.
harrrsh as always, but I see your point. However, Doodle didn't believe his life was utterly useless and wasteful, without the Brother constantly telling and showing him how useless his life was, he wouldn't have had the reason to train his body and push it past its limits.
DeleteIn my opinion, if Brother had not tried to teach Doodle how to run and walk, then Doodle would not have died. When Doodle was born, many thought he was going to die, but with the right care, he was amazingly able to survive. The doctors told the parents of Doodle and Brother that he is not to get too excited, cold, or hot because his heart is too weak to endure those type of conditions. Before Brother tried teaching Doodle, Doodle was safe, and was at no risk of dying. Brother's ego took over him, and he was embarrassed of going to school with a brother that couldn't walk. So, he taught him how to walk. Unfortunately, after Brother succeeded at one thing, Brother got a little too greedy, and tried teaching Doodle how to jump and swim. This was just a little too much for Doodle and his heart, and he went into cardiac arrest and passed away because his heart was beating too fast. Brother knew about his health being so fragile, yet it didn't matter to him. In my opinion, before Brother tried teaching Doodle, he must've thought the situation would be a win-win. At the beginning of the story, Brother thinks of killing Doodle by suffocating him with a pillow. Of course, he didn't end up doing this, but the feeling of anger in Brother never went away. So, Brother must've thought, I will attempt to teach him how to walk and run, and if he does, great! I have a "normal" little brother that I won't be embarrassed of going to school with. Then, he thought, what if Doodle isn't able to endure the physical toughness, and he ends up dying from it? Then that's great also! If he couldn't have a "normal" brother, then why have one at all? This is what he was thinking in his mind as he thought about trying to teach Doodle. This wasn't showcased in the book, but you have to give this some consideration. Brother had a sick mind, and he never loved his brother. He did it for himself, and I guarantee you that when he saw Doodle's dead body laying on the ground, he knew that he had just succeeded on his plan, but made the worst mistake of his life. He would regret that decision all his life. A sick boy, and a sick mind. It was his fault for Doodle's death, and I don't falter one bit when saying that.
ReplyDeleteArman Meghani
5th Period
Julian Pham
ReplyDelete1st period
I understand where you're coming from, but when you say "Doodle could have lived as close to a normal life as he [could], and probably would have enjoyed a leisurely life in the future..." how normal would that life be? Doodle is a cripple that couldn't even have walked if he wasn't forced to by Brother. Doodle wouldn't be able to do literally anything, which I think we all know isn't even close to normal. Brother, even though for selfish reasons, enabled the chance for Doodle to be normal, and when they rolled the dice, it came up short.
My bad this was in response to Han Li's post...which is up there^^^^^^^
Delete*FACEPALM
I agree with almost everything you said, except I don't think it was even the smallest bit Doodle's fault. Like Swetha said, Doodle looked up to Brother. He made Doodle believe that the activities they were doing were okay. Brother was perfectly aware of Doodle's health problems, but purposely didn't say anything about it because he was determined to get what he wanted.
Delete^That was in reply to Shifan Ali's post. Not really sure what happened...
DeleteI think that Doodles death should mostly be blamed on his brother. Doodle wouldn't have died if his brother hadn't of made him run, causing his heart to fail. It wasn't entirely the brother's fault if it weren't for Doodle's hindrances or the fact that he continued to chase his brother after his body told him that he couldn't, then Doodle could still possibly be alive, but maybe not for much longer. Ultimately it was the brother's fault that Doodle died so early. Doodle could've had a chance to do everything at his pace, not getting too hot, too cold, too excited, or too tired, then Doodle could've died like any other person.
ReplyDeleteGrace Fung
1 period
I do agree with you but Doodle can't exactly control his illness since he is just a child who doesn't really know much of how to control himself. All little kids cannot control themselves as easily as their elders. The fact that he listened to his brother's every command was because he didn't really know any better and his brother WAS the one who taught him to do many things such as swimming, rowing, walking etc.. so Doodle pretty much idolized him. And since Doodle idolized him he didn't want to be left by his brother in the rain so he pushed himself too hard to try and catch up with Brother in the storm. Yes, Doodle could be alive if Brother hadn't pushed him so hard (because he truly is an evil person for doing all that to Doodle) but I'm not saying part of it wasn't Doodle's fault too. So I kind of agree and disagree.
Delete(blah I'm so confused now...) -Shifan A.
Rohan Walawalkar 1st
ReplyDeleteWe can all agree that Doodle that Doodle was born a defective child. Him being able to live to the age of 3 months was a miracle. But even though we know that he was going to die because of his defect anyways, it was not an inevitable event unraveling a bit earlier. Doodle bacme what he was because of the strict ruiling, and selfishness of his brother. without that he would not have been able to walk, move, and especially bury the Scarlet ibis. Doodle is a dynamic charachter shaped by another, but unfortunately, this did not apply to the brother.
Doodle's brother is(Im just using a euphamism here) i sick, demented little dirtbag who sees his wrongs, but never decided to correct them. He made himself, and doodle into much less than they could have been. This big mistake made him revert to his scummy self when doodle was going through severe cardiac arrest, thus killing his brother becuse of his egocentricity.
Doodle would have died anyway even without his brother trying to change him. In the beginning of the story, Doodle was not even expected to live, so how could he be expected to life more than a few years? Yes, his brother was somewhat selfish about trying to get everything he wanted, but how could he help himself? As a young child, it would be terribly difficult for Brother to simply ignore Doodle let alone see immediately what how he was hurting him. Without Brother, Doodle would have never been able to bond with any other person and would have not lived much of a life. Although Brother may have sped up Doodle's death, Doodle was at least able to experience a small part of what it would be like if he was normal.
DeleteMichael Lin period 1
No offense, Rohan, but I am not a hundred percent agreeing with you. It’s true that Brother had played a major part in Doodle’s fate. However, it is Brother’s pride that caused Doodle’s death, not Brother himself. In other words, the narrator himself isn’t “evil.” It’s his pride that does all the damage, and when you look at it from a wider perspective, you see that Brother himself does care for Doodle. He brought and played with Doodle at the Old Woman’s Swamp every day. He helped him walk. Brother is selfish and egocentric, but that doesn’t make him “sick...[and] demented.” And even though Brother has ultimately caused Doodle’s death, it is his pride, not himself, that made Doodle die.
DeleteFYI: Brother is a dynamic character. At the beginning of the story, Brother talked about how he regretted what he had done, so Brother did change. This is also one of the main reasons why the author used flashback.
Oh, and I am in 5th period
Delete(Go 5th!)
Pooja Patel Period 1
ReplyDeleteI think that Doodle's death was partially Brother's fault and partially inevitable.
1. Doodle would have died before his time anyways because the older he got the more he would have to do. Say, if Doodle's entire family died, he would have to support himself, possibly by doing menial tasks that take a lot of effort. There would be too much stress on him and his heart would have exploded anyways.
2. Brother sped up Doodle's death by making him do tasks that might have been impossible if Brother were not Doodle's brother. I agree that even for a wrong reason, Brother did improve Doodle's life by helping him walk, run, row, etc. but he did not have to abandon his brother. When our parents were teaching us how to walk and run, they held our finger and patiently waited for us, so what Brother did was wrong. Making Doodle touch his own coffin might have been for his good even if it was once again done for the wrong reasons because it made Doodle a little bit fearless.
In conclusion, I believe that Brother and Doodle's disease were both in part to blme for Doodle's ultimate demise.
Don't worry, Alex! It's totally there! It shows up that you posted. =)
ReplyDeleteGuys, these discussions are great! I love all of the evidence you're using and how you're going deeper to really drive home your points. Brilliant!!
Feel free to expand the discussion beyond my question if you so desire!
I don't know why it doesn't let me see it. oh well. I have a really out-there question that I've been wandering. Where did all the anvils go? You see them all the time in cartoons, but that's it, you don't see them anywhere else. Some many people knew what they were that people assumed children would recognize them, and that's why coyote tries to attack roadrunner with them. If you think this is really strange, good, strange things get you thinking in strange ways, and normality is boring.
DeleteThough Doodle was born with a weak heart, it was Brother who taught Doodle to walk, swim, row, etc.. If maybe Brother didn't push Doodle so hard, Doodle could still be very well alive but that wasn't the case. I do blame Brother for all he had done to Doodle but who can say that some part of it wasn't Doodle's fault too? Doodle pretty much idolized Brother because of how he had taught him to do mostly all the things a normal little boy could do, but it was that idolization that led partly to Doodle tragedy. If Doodle hadn't blindly followed Brother and ran after him even though he knew he couldn't, he may have not died in the storm. Brother was doing all this for his own benefit but Doodle didn't know that and all of that that turned on Brother and Doodle when they realized what exactly they had done wrong. So resulting from that information, I think it was partially Doodle's fault but mostly Brother's fault for pushing Doodle too hard.
ReplyDeleteI totally agree with you that Doodle's death was both Brother's and Doodle's fault. Brother should have gone a little easy on Doodle, and Doodle shouldn't was went along with everything that Brother made him to do.
DeleteI posted almost the exact same thing as you, but I didn't realized that until I had already posted my! :)
But even though Doodle was still a child, he knew he was weak and that he shouldn't be doing anything that Brother was making him. Therefore Doodle played a large role in his own demise.
DeleteI don't think it was Doodle's fault. Because like Shifan said Doodle idolized his brother, and from Doodle's perspective his brother was just trying to help him. He put all his trust in his brother. I believe it was the bother's fault and not Doodle's
DeleteI believe that Doodle’s death was mostly Brother’s fault, but also partially Doodle’s own fault. As it was shown in the story, Brother was trying to help Doodle become a normal person by helping him learn all the things that normal people can do. This, in general, is a good thing for Doodle because Brother was helping him build up his strength and tolerance, but the dreadful thing that happened was that Brother was pushing him way too far way too fast. If he had done this at a more reasonable pace, then Doodle might have actually build up his strength and lived like a normal person for the rest of his life. Brother’s selfishness at actually having a normal brother to play with was what had killed Doodle. I mentioned before that this was also partially Doodle’s own fault because he had let Brother pushed him too far. He could have made some changes in Brother’s plan for him, but instead he led himself be pushed around by Brother. He was the one who was being put through the program, so the program could not have gone on without him actually being in it. So I think that Doodle’s death was mostly Brother’s but also partially Doodle’s own fault. It was Brother’s fault because he had pushed Doodle too hard, and it was Doodle’s fault because he let himself to be pushed by Brother.
ReplyDeleteI agree your idea, Jing. Brother is trying to push Doodle too far and he is too young to understand the ability to do something is different for each person. Doodle completely relies on his brother and tries to do everything to reach his brother's expectation even it is out of his ability. This tragedy causes by the ignorance of two children. I think Doodle's parents have faults, too. Parents should think about the affordability when they see Doodle is walking. They are the only one who can control the amount of pressure that Brother gives to Doodle.
DeleteI'm glad that you agree with me,Erin, and I can see where you are coming from with the fact that Doodle's death was also his parents' fault. After they had first seen Doodle walk, something within them should have click and realized that something up with Doodle and Brother. They should have probed into the fact that Doodle, a weak, fragile child, started to walk. Maybe if they had realized what Brother was doing to Doodle, they could have helped to keep it more under control and relieve some of Doodle's stress. With the help of his parents, the cooperation would have definitely been a lot better.
DeleteYou're right, Jing. I hadn't thought of that before. It's partially William's fault because he didn't think of how it would affect him if he let his Brother push him too far. He should have stood up to him and slow down. But when he did say it, it was too late. I agree that both of the Brothers had a hand in William's death, and the disease barely had anything to do with it. I also believe that if Brother hadn't pushed William so far so fast, he would probably still be alive. The parents should have also monitored how much and how fast Brother was pushing William. Many people had a hand in Doodle's death, but I believe that Brother had the biggest hand.
DeleteKainat Chaudhary period 5
Aliya Noorani
ReplyDelete1st Period
I believe that Doodle's death was not brothers fault but instead a tragic, inevitable end. When Doodle was born, he was already pronounced, by doctors, to have a short life. He was born with many disabilities such as heart defects and a crippled body. Doodle was not able to walk, run, crawl and do many other physical activities. He also couldn't be too hot or too cold and wasn't able to get too excited. With all those disabilities, anyone would have died. Yet Doodle survived year after another. By the time most children could walk, Doodle began to crawl. His brother, like any other sibling, began to teach him many things like swimming, climbing, and rowing. Even though the doctors warned him and his family not to make Doodle work so hard, Doodle went on to do many things. His brother had too much pride when he completed his first accomplishment which was teaching Doodle to walk. He wouldn't give up and because of that Doodle started to believe in himself. He tried hard in everything and unfortunately when the storm came Doodle had cardiac arrest which led to his death. It wasn't all brothers fault. If Doodle hadn't tried as hard, he just might have been alive.
Swetha Davuluru 1st period
ReplyDeleteIt seems apparent that Doodle was born with defects making it impossible for him to do things that normal children his age are able to do. Yet Doodle's brother could not see the dangers Doodle's defects posed. Doodle’s brother is obviously disappointed with Doodle like anyone hoping for a normal brother would be, however, Brother took it too far. He pushed Doodle beyond his limits which eventually led to Doodle's death. Doodle also held a large amount of trust with his brother, and his brother abused this power to feed his pride.
I definitely agree that Brother abused his power and took advantage of Doodle's trust. He let pride get to him and pushed Doodle way too hard.
Delete-Lisette Chan, Period 1
Doodle's death was a tragic playing out of an inevitable conclusion. From the start of the story, Doodle can clearly be seen as a very fragile person who had not even been expected to live. Because of this, he should not even be expected to live long anyway. Although Brother may have sped up Doodle's death, he did give him just about the best experience in life he would ever have. Since Doodle was severely defective, he would not have been able to feel what it would be like to be normal without help. Brother helped Doodle learn to walk, run, swim, and many other normal activities. Without Brother, Doodle's life may have lasted slightly longer, but it would have no purpose. He would not have ever bonded with anyone, and his life would be quite boring.
ReplyDeleteI disagree with your observations because Doodle's death was ultimately Brother's fault. Had it not been for Brother's taking advantage of Doodle's emotional attachments to him, Doodle could have had survived past that day. I agree with the part in which you say that Doodle may not have lived that much longer due to his health problems, but any life is still life. In fact, handicapped people today are able to overcome their disabilities and live as if they were normal. Though there may not have been as much technology in their time period, a structured household along with special care would have helped Doodle significantly. If Brother was not self-absorbed, he could have provided Doodle with much more support and many more lasting memories without emotional scars, such as being forced to learn something you don't want to and to touch a coffin that was covered in Paris Green and constantly reminds him that he was never meant to live.
DeleteDoodle's handicap could have been easily overcome by following the doctor's orders and keeping Doodle in a controlled environment. Without Brother's interference, Doodle very possibly could have lived a long happy life as long as he did not "get too excited, too hot, too cold, or too tired and [was] always treated gently" (Hurst 465). Unfortunately for Doodle, Brother's pride and cowardice drove him to extremes. Doodle was pushed by Brother to learn to run, swim, and participate in demanding activities that were prohibited by the doctor. Brother was more concerned about his social image than Doodle. Even though Brother knew about Doodle's heart problems and attachment to him, he rashly decided that Doodle's failure was irredeemable and left him in the storm. Doodle was relatively safe when Brother stayed at a slow pace, but when Brother quickly ran away and abandoned him, Doodle panicked and tried to keep up, both of which contributed to his demise. If Brother had not been so conceited, Doodle might have been able to survive that fateful day. Though Doodle may not have had the perfect life in the future, it still would have been a life, one that would have ended by old age instead of by Brother's ignorance and hurt pride.
ReplyDeleteI think that Doodle died because of his physical disabilities, however if Brother hadn't pushed him so hard, he probably could have lived longer. The doctor says from the beginning that Doodle is VERY likely to die because of his disabilities. He gives a list of things that Doodle shouldn't do, but Brother pushes him to do most of those things anyway. Obviously this isn't good for Doodle's health. Brother pushes him so hard that he eventually turns blue and falls to the ground because he literally can't do it anymore. Obviously this isn't good for Doodle emotionally or physically. Most importantly though, he gets Doodle very anxious when he leaves him behind in the rain. I think the excitement mixed in with the rough physical conditions was just way too much for him. If Brother had considered this and treated Doodle with the appropriate care instead of leaving him behind, Doodle could've lived longer.
ReplyDeleteLisette Chan, Period 1
I agree that Doodle died cause of his defects not mainly cause of his brother , but its just that his brother push him too hard and make his life span shorter.
DeleteI believe that Doodle's death was mainly cause by his brother's selfishness. His brother was too closed-minded about his actions, and did not heed the doctors multiple warnings about what Doodle was NOT to do. I believe brother could have prevented his wrongdoing if he had taken that one extra precaution, making sure Doodle didn't get too panicked, too stressed, or too hot/cold. With the right precautions, I think Doodle wouldn't have died, even if they were running home through the rain. So technically, my stand point is that, yes, his brother did kill him, but also, if his brother had taken some EXTRA little steps of precautions, none of this would have happened.
ReplyDeleteI think Doodle was gonna die on his own he was weak in the beginning and through out the story. His brother did make the death of Doodle come about faster, but death for Doodle to me was inevitable. His brother did help him achieve things a normal human and made Doodle very happy. Maybe Doodle could of lived longer but in the end to me death was waiting for him not far from the point at which he died
ReplyDeleteI disagree with you because it was preventable and he wasn't weak, he was just special, and he could've survived the toil if he had been put in very constant conditions
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteThe above was deleted because I forgot to mention I was in the first period. Just in case. Back to work!
DeleteI definitely agree with Bob. Yes, he was going to die, but had he taken care of himself a bit more carefully, he would have died a long time from then. He believed in Brother to put limits for him, and Brother knew no better. We are all going to die, but Doodle's time was not anywhere near the time he died during the story.
Doodle was very strong compared to how he had been a couple of years back. Death is inevitable, but he took himself past his own limits and caused the unfortunate loss of his life.
On a second note :D
ReplyDeleteMrs. McCoun said we could start a new question, and one has been welling up in me for quite some time now, so here it is :D.
As u all read, Brother, out of selfishness and pride and the such, had taught Doodle how to walk. This became a HUGE accomplishment, yet many people in this discussion comment on it, saying that it was bad because his brother did it out of unjust reasons. Also, many people say that it was a added factor to the rowing, swimming, and all of that that lead to Doodle's death.
Now, my question is, if Brother had taught Doodle to walk and run ONLY and had STOPPED there, even if it was for unjust reasons in the beginning, would u have commended or disapproved of Brother teaching Doodle a important life skill such as walking. Please note, I say that he STOPS there, and he doesnt teach him the swimming/rowing/boxing, or whatever that drove Doodle over that cliff of death.
I honestly believe that Doodle would have survived if Brother hadn't pushed him too hard. It was clear to us that Doodle was gaining strength throughout his training, and that he was becoming more "normal". I believe that Doodle could have even survived the, as you put it, "swimming/rowing/boxing" if Brother could have slowed down his pace a little bit more. Doodle couldn't even walk before, but Brother has helped him accomplish that. If only Brother was less selfish, Doodle could have turned out to be alright and normal.
DeleteI definitely agree with Jing here. I mean, yes, I did bash on brother for those reasons, but if Brother had taken up a little pace between each activity, then i definitely agree, that his death wouldn't have occured. But of course, everyone's subject to their own opinion, but I just feel that Brother could've taught him over time. I mean, no ones learns something in just one day or week, or sometimes even a month! For example, when I learned to play the saxophone, it took me a year to learn the basics. But we went at a pace, so it was okay. I believe the same thing applies here. For me, it all comes back to taking time, and giving Doodle a pace to work with.
DeleteWhen Brother teaches Doodle how to walk, Doodle is able to do many new things that he might only have dreamed of before. Doodle's new skill is, as Jonathan says, a huge accomplishment, and I think that we would view Brother a lot more favorably if he stopped at that. Brother did put quite a bit of pressure on Doodle during the lessons, but I think that pressure is sometimes a good thing when it helps to achieve a goal. Though Brother might have had selfish motives in doing so, the positive results of the walking lessons far outweighed the bad. It is only through the "swimming/rowing/boxing" later on in the story that the full extent of Brother's selfishness is revealed and leads to Doodle's demise.
DeleteI also agree with the previous two responses to Jonathan's question- that if Brother had gone at a slower, more steady pace as he taught his brother how to swim and row and box like the other kids, Doodle could definitely have survived and lived a near-normal life.
Grant Lu
5th period
Ah, looking at these comments are quite scary! But now, I shall assess thy question that has been posted by the kind L.McCoun. (I sound so proper in my head!!)
ReplyDeleteI definitely think it was so called Brother's fault. no doubt aout it! If you honestly think about it, when was brother nice? like, 3 times throughout the story? That doesn"t even count. What 6 year old schemes to suffocate a baby with a pillow?! idek.. As the stroy played on, Brother was selfish, and pushy! (reminds me of my sister! hah.. humorous me!) It was clearly stated what Doodle could handle and couldn't! He wasn't supposed to exert pressure on himself, nor wear himself out. he mustn"t get too hot or too cold. Of course, Brother was oblivious and obnoxious! (I really don't like him..) He would swing his little go-cart around like a roller coaster, and this kid would force Doodle to touch a coffin?? He forced Doodle to walk, not even for his own sake, but for Brother's selfish, and twisted, manipulated reasons. That's what Brother did, he MANIPULATED Doodle for his own use.
I strongly believe that it was all Brother's fault. If he had been a bit more leniant to Doodles capability to walk, swim, row, run etc. Maybe Doodle would've been a healthy boy! There's of course what Miss McCoun said today in class! She pointed out that Doodle had that heart problem, a weak heart!
On the day of Doodle's death, it was when he was being forced to row in the swamp, river thing right? I've gone rowing in the normal rainstorm before, and from personal experience, its not that easy (words of a former boy scout - wha's upp!) and for Brother to force Doodle to row in a freaking hurricane?! like. wth? Who in the WORLD does that? This is definitely NOT Storm Chasers! (Again more humor..slightly crude......)
Im sorry if this statement differentiates from anyone but, that just makes this debate more fun. So my final say is yes, it was Brother's fault. In the end, I think Doodle could"ve survived if brother stayed calm, walked with him, carried him, or anything! But leaving a little toddler/child in a hurricane that is just around the corner (oh my lord ew. 5th grade) is not okay. Even in a story. it's just plain wrong.
Well. This was fun. okay, BYE! (:
-Reshad Faisal Hoque
Class Period 5 of the High School of Clements.
Linsey McCoun
In the back desk in front of the broken shelf behind Tim.
I LOVE YOUR LAUGH MS. MCCOUN. OML! (Oh My Lord)
sorry for the little mistakes..
DeleteNo offense, Reshad, but I am not a hundred percent agreeing with you here. It’s true that Brother is selfish. It’s true that Brother is egocentric. It’s true that Brother ultimately caused Doodle’s death. However, Brother isn’t “evil.” He isn’t a big bully who beats Doodle for fun. He’s just a kid with a good goal but for a bad cause. Yes, it’s true that the story only mentions Brother’s good side three times, but three times is quite a lot when you count that the whole story only mentions seven things (And one being the scarlet ibis, so that’s good and bad half-and-half). Also, when you look at a period of decade in such short amount of pages, you naturally don’t see the whole story. Brother had probably done other nice things that weren’t mentioned in the story. Just because he did mean things to Doodle doesn’t make him “evil.” As you can see, he does nice things too.
DeleteNow, what six-year old schemes to suffocate a baby with a pillow? The point you made was that he was only six. And that’s exactly the point I am trying to make. The narrator was only six at that time! Six! Does a normal six-year old know killing a weak child is wrong? Does a normal six year old know that having a brother is someone that you should love and care for? No. In fact, you don’t develop your complete judgment skills until about sixteen. And even then, we still make mistakes in our lives. Brother was only six and six-year olds are crazy. (I know I was crazy at six b/c I was in first grade :P) Just because Brother has weird thoughts doesn’t make him “evil.” He’s just a little kid.
I am not trying to defend Brother here. What he did is wrong! However, when you look at it from a wider perspective, you can see that Brother is everywhere. His pride is in getting an A on an assignment that everybody else got a B or C on. His pride can be in how we look at the middle schoolers b/c we think we are better than them. What Brother did was just a little bit too far. He had a bad ego, but he wasn’t a bad person. He was just a little kid who is still learning from his mistakes. In a story like this, it’s not wrong. It’s showing that he regrets what he had done and is warning other people of his mistakes.
I am sorry if I am offending you, Reshad. It’s just…it’s kinda hard to counter someone else’s argument when his/her argument is filled with voice and personality. The only reason I am heated up is because you have a very strong and firm opinion. I am sorry if I am offending you in anyway. And I do agree with you that what Brother had done was wrong. I apologize if the whole comment is kind of rough. I hope you understand my opinions and feelings.
Thanks,
Scott Cao
5th period (Go 5th!)
lol, I cracked up when I read the just around the corner reference!
DeleteHAHHAHAHAHAHA i just saw scotts comment.. No Offense taken bud! awkward how late this is............
DeleteOh yeah, thanks. I thought I was being a bit too enthusiastic on that reply, but thanks. I really appreciated it...even though it is a bit late.
DeleteThe brother had the responsibility to take care of Doodle, since he was his elder brother. So I would say it was the brother’s fault that Doodle died mainly because the brother kept pushing Doodle to do risky dangerous things that could negatively affect him. I disagree that Doodle would have tragically died due to natural causes because he was growing healthier as the story goes on; his heart was developing and learning how to adapt. The scarlet ibis symbolizes Doodle and the hurricane symbolizes the brother, which foreshadows the events to come later on in the story. The brother was selfish in the beginning of the story, but later on changes and starts caring about Doodle. Therefore you really don’t know how much you love a person until you lose them.
ReplyDeleteReshad, I need you to know that your post made my life better! It totally made me LOL (in class style)! You have such a fantastic wit and clever voice. Nice job!!
ReplyDeleteGreat job to all of you!! I am loving this!!
Again, feel free to expand the convo to other issues from the story if you wish.
Woo hoo!! Go, y'all!!
LOVE LOVE LOVE your new question, Jonathan!!! Everyone respond to that one!!! Excellent critical thinking!! Rock on!!
ReplyDeleteDon't worry about typos or grammar, guys! We're here to discuss! Nothing more. I promise I'm not judging you!! =)
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteDoodle's passing was not coincidence or fate, but was rather a result of poor brotherly protection from Brother. It was not inevitable, because truthfully he could have survived in life. However, the narrator clearly expresses Brother's feelings towards Doodle and how Brother had very little care for Doodle's personal gain, rather his own personal gain. Doodle would have lived if not exposed to the feelings he was NOT supposed to be exposed to. As a result, Doodle suffered a heart failure and was "put to sleep", so to say. This was not inevitable, but was simply easily preventable.
ReplyDeleteHey.. Tim. You broke the shelf i sit in front of.. Bad Tim. bad TIM!
DeleteOh and I agree with your response strongly as well. I like that you pointed out it wasnt inevitable, but preventable. Good Job Tim.. Good job. HAHAHA..
Is da Chinese boi, Hey Tim I agree with your opinion and explanation. Doodle's death could have been prevented if brother would just slow down a little, and care enough to go the extra mile to save his family member.
DeleteOkay, so I am in first period. Now that that is out of the way, time to introduce my perspective.
ReplyDeleteIn realistic terms, Doodle died due to a cardiac arrest. This took place due to the fact that his weak heart had been overexerted when attempting to catch up with his brother while he was running away. He was not supposed to run, become too tired, be too hot, or too cold. However, walking was okay. If they both would have walked home together, nothing would have happened.
He did not die due to emotions, experiences, or anything. He just died because his body was pushed beyond its limits. Once we have that basic covered, we can move on. Now, did Brother force him to run toward him? No. This is where the conflict begins.
Brother formed a bond with Doodle that made Doodle look up to him in a way that made him think he needed him for everything. He seemed infallible. He knew everything. This, to a certain extent, was true. Doodle was very dependent on Brother, and most of the things he managed to succeed on were because of Brother. The fact that the purpose of Brother helping him out was to benefit himself is not important. All that matters is that he helped him. And he felt happy because his brother was helping him.
So, we can infer that Doodle ran toward Brother when he left him because he felt that if he did not have Brother with him, he would be alone. He would be in danger. This thought process would have branched off the bond he had with him that made Brother seem like some sort of master he would be trying to please. However, this is a decision Doodle wanted to make.
Most people would blame Brother as an answer to the question, but in all reality, Brother did not make him run after him. It was Doodle who decided to do so. Yes, Brother can feel guilty about his death because he knew about the bond he had with him. Was Doodle Brother's responsibility? Yes. So, if he died, is it his fault? No. Can he be held accountable for it? Yes.
My answer is that it was not Brother's fault and it was not a situation that could not have been avoided. Because it could have been. How? Well, it was all in Doodle's hands. He could have tried to run and die in the process, or he could have calmly walked home. I guess you could consider what Brother did to be factors that led up to the bond that ultimately gave the decision to Doodle whether to continue life or die running, but it was him who took the path at the end. Did he necessarily mean to take death? No. He just believed that since he could walk, he could run as well. Or maybe his body simply released adrenaline to run away from the fear of danger that came from not having Brother.
Either way, it was Doodle's decision. It was not Brother's fault, and it was a situation that could have been easily avoided. Those are my two cents. Please argue as you wish.
Felix, First period.
DeleteI agree on the fact that It may not be considered Brother's fault. But I think you're drawing it from the wrong reasons.
First, The text does tell us, that a there was some sort of "evil", if you'll call it, intent (resulting from the fact that he knew a failure was coming).
Rather, I think excluding his culpability, comes from the nature of the decision being spontaneous, as well as his own condemning of his streaks of cruelness, and most of all his remorse. I mean, one could go so far as to say, that he got what he deserved simply by the pain he must have felt from his regret and guilt.
Feel free to disagree :D.
FELIX!!!!! I still owe you a dollar..... you will never get it!
DeleteWhat does that have to do with the subject!
DeleteHey Connor.. You can give me his dollar if you want........
DeleteOk! thank you Reshad. ill give it to you tomorrow.
DeleteWow guys, way to stay on topic...
DeleteOK so I don't agree with Diego, but I DO like how you responded to the question with the buttloads of good reasons and vocab. It really made it stand out among the many comments! (Just kidding, I just randomly scrolled around and chose one to reply to. But it still stands out! :D)
I think that even though it WAS Doodle's decision to follow Brother, but Brother made those bonds with Doodle and took advantage of his little brother in a way that Doodle's attachment to his brother MADE him chase after Brother (sorry if that was confusing). Also, Doodle couldn't have just stayed there, he would have been blown away or something because he's so little. Yup, tiny Doodle + staying still = blown away by bad storm.
All in all, GREAT response, but I have to disagree on some points...sorry! :/
Rachel He
5th Period
..so long..
ReplyDeletefrom the time the Brother made Doodle touch his own coffin, to the horrid time that the Brother left Doodle in the rain, I never had a high opinion of the Brother He pushed Doodle completely past his physical limits, and leaving him, abandoning him. Doodle looked up to his brother and depended on him, with the Brother leaving him, he tried to keep up but soon fell compulsively. That was the tipping point. The Brother, training him, pushing him, pressuring Doodle lead to that breaking point. Ultimately what I'm saying is that it's the Brother's fault.
I agree with Eajer because Brother should have taken some thought to his actions. He should have taken responsibility for Doodle instead of acting like a child.
DeleteI'm sorry. I forgot to write I'm in Period 1.
Delete1st Period: I think that it was Brother's fault for the death of Doodle. Due to his poor health conditions, he was most likely going to live shorter than most people. But because Brother forced him to do things that he was too weak to do, like running and swimming, Doodle's heart gave out on him faster than it could have.
ReplyDeleteI dont think it was Brother as much as it was the pride that he had.
DeleteI agree with you. It was his brother's fault. His carelessness resulted in the death of his brother.
DeleteI agree with Leila that it was mostly brother's fault. Brother knew he had control over Doodle, and he abused those powers. If he hadn't been so selfish, Doodle may have still lived- even if it's unlikely. Doodle was brother's responsibily, and if he didn't want that responsibiliy then, he should've said something to his parents. I think brother was very controlling and selfish and liked having Doodle around. But, because of Brother's bad choices and decisions he ultimately indirectly ended up killing Doodle.
DeleteFirst Period, Felix.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that blame can be entirely labeled onto the Brother.
First, it seems to me that much of his actions were controlled by his environment rather than by his own free will. This is notably expressed by his own narration, as he describes some of his actions as a "strike of cruelty".
Second, the decision which lead to the death of Doodle, was very much spontaneous, and most obviously regretted. Although, it was a decision that carried some evil intent, He never intended the death of Doodle. And, since i'm interpreting blameworthiness to be judged by some abstract concept of moral responsibility rather than legal responsibility, I'd disagree that such intent consisted enough for the Brother to be considered "blameworthy".
I think that the death of Doodle was Brother's fault. I think it is Brother's fault because in the text it stated not to do these things with Doodle like running,fast walking etc. and Brother went on and started to do these actions anyways which eventually kills Doodle.
ReplyDeleteBrother also weakened Doodle's heart because he was making doodle do things that the doctor said not to do. I think Brother went too crazy with making Doodle perfect he forgot how much it hurts Doodle to do the actions.
Brother also did things that made Doodle lose his confidence in himself. Brother making Doodle touch the coffin and making him lose his confidence and it showed Doodle how weak he is and how he is different.
Comment:
ReplyDeleteHello, if we consider the following two cases, I believe this question may become clearer.
First, suppose Doodle had been born a normal child, who develops as well as his brother. In this scenario, even if his brother had behaved as he did in the story, Doodle, being of healthy and able nature, would not have died. Now, imagine another situation, one where Doodle is still ill, but his brother acts kindly and relentlessly cares for him. Despite this intensive care, Doodle, held back by his pre-existing conditions, would nevertheless be of poor health and delayed growth. It is important to note that even if Doodle is well nurtured, he still could not venture far from weakness and death.
Being born weak and unhealthy, Doodle lived considerably closer to the boundaries of death than his fellows. As a child with these inherent characteristics, Doodle constantly presented a much greater propensity of fatal illness than others. Therefore, I believe that Doodle’s death was a highly likely result, yet it was his brother’s actions that sealed his fate.
Wilbur Li
Fifth Period
I have to agree with Wilbur on this one. Due to the fact that Doodle was crippled to start with, plus the fact that his brother pushed his so hard, these events lead to his death. Doodle would have died anyways. He only died faster because his brother pushed him over the edge. Had Doodle been born a normal child ( like his brother) , he would have lived a considerably longer, if not better life. But in reality, (the story's reality) Doodle is far from normal which is why his brother,who was very selfish,pushed him so much. His weak heart, too much strain, and the selfishness of his brother led to his very unfortunate death. Therefore, I believe that Doodle would have died sooner or later. His brother simply sped up the process.
DeleteI think that Wilbur is right. However, we also have to consider the fact that Doodle had survived longer than anyone had expected. Who is to say that doodle would not surprise his family yet again by making a full recovery. At the same time, we have to look at Brother. He is one of the most cruel characters I have ever read about. He wanted to KILL his brother for his own gain!! How can we dismiss that so quickly. I believe that Doodle death was imminent, but Brother should still be to blame because he is the one he caused his brothers heart to go out
DeleteI think Wilburs statement was correct in every aspect. Doodle was born with inabilities and health problems that would have everntually caused him to die. This plus the fact that Brother pushed him too far caused Doodle to give in and die. However, I think Doodles death in the book was a process that each time Brother forced Doodle to a new level his haert got weaker and weaker. So if Brother had given up on Doodle sooner, Doodle might not have died as quick. Nevertheless, Brother could not have given up on his pride because that was what drived him and his life. Basically without pride Brother would just be died. Soin conclusion, Brother was a strong role in the killing of Doodle along with Doodles health problems.
DeleteAlright, guys, since we have received approbations from Ms. McCoun to ask our own question. Here is mine. When I was reading the comments, I suddenly had this idea, so here it goes:
ReplyDeleteIf Doodle had lived the storm, would he forgive Brother for what Brother had done?
Please comment.
If Doodle had lived through the storm, I believe that he would have forgave Brother for it. I'm sure that the time that Brother made Doodle touch his own coffin is one of our deepest memory from the story, and we had pretty much all agreed on that that was the meanest thing that Brother had done to him. If he had forgiven Brother for that, then he would have forgiven Brother for leaving him behind in the storm.
DeleteThis question really made me think. I have a feeling that if Doodle had survived the storm, he wouldn’t have forgiven his brother. No doubt, it would have been a traumatic experience for him and it would have made him realize who his brother really was. Doodle was smart enough to know that no brother that truly cared about his sibling would leave him behind in a time of need. Even though Doodle loved Brother no matter what he did, I think leaving him behind in the storm would have scarred him enough to never forget or forgive.
DeleteWow. Lots of comments…
ReplyDeleteI think Doodle will die someday. He has a weak heart when he is born. The ability of surviving of people who have heart problem back in World War 2 (the time that story is based on) is very small. Everybody expects that Doodle is so powerless and unable to survive. When Doodle is two, doctor has claimed “with his weak heart this [moving] strain would probably kill him”. (Hurst 464) It is undeniable that Doodle will die because his weak heart.
Brother’s action brings this day earlier. Brother’s six when Doodle born. It’s just an age that boys are very excited to play. He has many hopes about the new little brother which can become his buddy someday. Things do not turn out the way he wants. Doodle is a brother who “lie[s] on the rubber sheet in the center of the bed in the front bedroom”. (Hurst 464) What will you do if you get the thing that you can’t expect? Change it! Brother wants a normal brother, so he tries to teach Doodle everything to be a normal kid.
Things start to out of control. Brother begins overwhelming Doodle, and Doodle, who wants to always reach Brother’s goal, begins to against the maximum of his ability. As same as many people said before, the running in the storm is the last straw that broke camel’s back. It is too cruel to criticize a young boy. Brother do cause this tragedy because his pride, but Doodle’s disease is the major reason. As I replied before, parents also have faults by not leading Brother to treat Doodle right and not telling Doodle don’t try too hard. The tragedy is not only one’s fault. It only happens by multiple reasons, wrong place, and wrong time.
I believe that Doodle could have lived through this storm if his brother would have stuck with him till the end. I blame brother for not sticking with him until they got home. You should save a family member no matter what cicumstances there are, or at least try. Brother should have walked at Doodle's slow pace whether it was raining hard or not. Clearly brother did not do that, he ran for his life leaving Doodle in the storm with no help or protection. I think Doodle over time could have strengthened his heart with a little excersise every day. Slowly he would be able to run like brother could. Since he was killed and not physically prepared for the hard work he never got to prove himself. Brother could have offered protection to Doodle by sheltering from the rain and going the extra mile to help Doodle. Doodle had a drive to push on and brother took advantage of that and pushed it to far, thus causing his brother's death. Even though his brother was weak he had managed to stay alive this long, so he could most likely kept on living if it was not for his brother. In the end it was Doodle's brother who killed him.
ReplyDeleteJames M. is in first period
ReplyDeleteLike many of you have already said, I feel like it would be unfair to place ALL of the blame on Brother. Despite that, I also believe Doodle would've been able to live a full life had his brother not pushed him so far. I disagree with those of you who think that Doodle would have died young eventually regardless of his brother’s actions. I think that Brother indisputably played the largest role in Doodle’s death. Doodle had developed a sort of dependence on Brother. He didn’t just look up to him or admire him, he needed him. Brother took on the role of Doodle’s backbone. Brother was responsible for where he went, who he was with, and what he did at almost all times. Doodle became his responsibility, and he became Doodle’s leader. Doodle’s dependence on Brother was evident throughout the entire story. For instance his reoccurring use of the phrase “Don’t leave me brother” first, when he is forced to touch his casket and again in the moments before his death. Although Brother did manage to help Doodle at times, he definitely hurt him more then he helped. He made Doodle a stronger person, but he lost sight of the fact that Doodle was still sick. Pushing Doodle to be able to walk and run wasn’t a bad thing, but Brother didn’t know when to stop. That's what played the biggest part in Doodle's death.
ReplyDeleteGabby Johnson 5th Period
Even though Brother is very harsh on Doodle, I believe that Doodle’s death was, in the end, a tragic playing out of an inevitable conclusion. Doodle was born defected with a weak heart, or scientifically known as heart failure (heart failure simply means that your heart cannot pump enough blood to your organs). According to statistics from Merck.com, “fewer than fewer than 30 percent of patients [who have congestive heart failure] live longer than 10 years with the condition.” (Merck.com) In other words, not much people with a weak heart live after a decade, meaning it is very likely that Doodle wouldn’t live after a decade.
ReplyDeleteHowever, even though this is just a tragic playing, I believe that, like Shifan has mentioned, Brother “sped up the process.” Brother, blinded by his pride, was forcing Doodle to overexert his body. Doodle wasn’t supposed to be “too excited, too hot, too cold, or too tired,” but Brother was forcing Doodle beyond his limit every day. Doodle’s body was overworked and simply collapsed due to panic when the storm came. Brother’s pride had partially caused Doodle’s death, but it was not his fault that Doodle would actually die.
P.S.: I am sorry if I am not really making sense here. This is kind of late at night and I am really, really tired! If you don’t understand what I am talking about please ignore this post! Thanks.
Scott Cao
5th period (Go 5th!)
You made perfect sense Scott and I completely agree with you! :D
DeleteThe quote you made about "fewer than fewer than 30 percent of patients [who have congestive heart failure] live longer than 10 years with the condition" is very true in this story. Brother just mainly "sped up the process" of his death. He would have died, like the quote said, around age 30, so it was also just a tragic playing of his disabilities that he was born with, but Brother was just something going along with it like enzymes speed up chemical reactions within our bodies. (learned that in bio! yay! :D)
Although Brother was cruel to Doodle, I believe that what happened to Doodle was Brother's fault because the doctor specifically stated that Doodle wasn't allowed to get too hot, too cold, or too tired. Even if Brother hadn't pushed Doodle to run, Doodle would have been affected by the rain.
ReplyDeleteIn the end, Doodle's death was inevitable. He had a weak heart and it wasn't allowed to be overexerted, but it was still Brother's pride that ultimately caused his death. Either way Doodle would have died later on because of his weak heart's inability to support his body.
Emily Huang
1st Period
Well, To be honest, i believe that brother just sped up what nature had in store for doodle anyway. In a way, he acted as a catalyst. Through his terrible care of doodle, if you would consider it to be care, brother caused doodle to die faster. It was almost like what happens in pokemon. I know, I know, this sounds completely irrelevant. But in Pokemon, a poisoned creature will die at some point if not given the cure. This poisoned creature represents doodle. However, if the poisoned Pokemon fights another Pokemon, It will most probably die. So in a sense, the attacking Pokemon, only sped up what was sure to happen in the first place. I know that this allusion may have been way out there and I'm sorry to those people that don't know anything about Pokemon. It was the only way I could symbolize it.
ReplyDeleteAhmad Boukhris 5th period
I fully agree, and disagree, doodle might have made it inot the house, had brother not pushed him so hard in the beginning! and pokemon? really?
DeleteUmm...sorry, I'm about to sound really weird. You don't have to read this...
DeleteWell, Pokemon can not die, they "faint"...only because gamemakers think little children will turn evil if their Pokemon "die"...
Also, in Diamond/Pearl, don't Pokemon NOT faint when they are poisoned, but like, barely stay alive?
And you can switch out your Pokemon, so you can still win, even without giving them an antidote.
In Black/White if you switch out your Pokemon in battle, they don't receive any damage, I think...
AND you can give them Potions, so they don't die, but are still poisoned.
Finally, Poison-type Pokemon don't get poisoned (I don't think any other ones are immune...?)....
Yup. This is awkward. Awkwardness is my specialty.
Rachel He
5th Per.
Connor, do you have anything against Pokemon? And I think it was a great example. And Rachel, think of this example as gen 1 through 3, where they do receive damage, and also think of it as a one on one battle, so they can't switch out. And this is way to technical for a general example. Plus If you give them a potion you are just prolonging the inevitable, unless you just stay in one spot and shut off your game forever. But Doodle wasn't able to do that, Brother forced him out of that spot. He didn't allow doodle to live safely, he wanted doodle to be normal so that he wouldn't have a weird brother. Plus steel types are unaffected by poison type moves, so I don't think that they can be poisoned.
DeleteDoodle was just a tragic cause from the beginning with and end that seemed too close. Everyone doubted that he would live and even though he did there were still doubts. That’s why the family named him Doodle because they didn’t think he was going to amount to much because of his inabilities. I believe this was true and that Doodle was going to die eventually with or without Brothers help. The main reason why is because he wasn’t allowed to get too hot or cold and strain himself too much. Now, this what all children do, so Doodle would have died living his childhood. However, Brother aided to killing Doodle by over straining him just for the sake of his own pride. Brother had just as much hand in killing Doodle as much as his inabilities did.
ReplyDeleteBro, Doodle's brother sped up the process by making him work too hard so his brother is at fault. Even though he didn't kill him directly, he indirectly killed him by putting him through a boot camp like in the book "Night" where the Jews had to go through the boot camp and only few survived the harsh methods of the Nazis.
DeleteBro, Doodle's brother sped up the process by making him work too hard so his brother is at fault. Even though he didn't kill him directly, he indirectly killed him by putting him through a boot camp like in the book "Night" where the Jews had to go through the boot camp and only few survived the harsh methods of the Nazis.
DeleteI think that it was Doodle's brother who caused his death. His brother made him work harder than he was supposed to. It caused him strain, but he didn't tell his brother because he didn't want to disappoint him. He kept on going with his brother's plans. This was bad for him, and it made his condition worse. Then his brother, who thought of Doodle as a puppet, made him chase after him. This was the ultimate test of Doodle's strength. Since he couldn't withstand it he died. That is solely his brothers fault. He should of cared for Doodle enough as to not leave him alone.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteLike many people have already said, Doodle died indirectly because of brother, but he would’ve eventually given up. Doodle had a very weak heart, and had many limitations. Because he couldn’t do many things he eventually would have died. The kids in school may have pushed him to his limit, or his heart may have given up on its own. Brother didn’t directly kill Doodle, but he sped up the process.
ReplyDeleteDoodle trusted Brother and that’s why it is partially brother’s fault. Since Doodle trusted him so much, it was wrong for brother to leave him. I have a little sister, and sometimes I leave her out, or do something mean on purpose. But, I know she can handle herself because she’s a strong fireball. In brother’s case, Doodle is very weak. Even knowing this, brother chose to run away without Doodle. Brother didn’t know the consequences of that. He only realized how much he loved Doodle after he was gone.
Saying that, I also believe that Doodle may have been able to live a full life if brother hadn’t gone away, but it was an unlikely chance. If not that time, brother was getting fed up with Doodle anyway, so he might’ve done something else that killed Doodle. Brother knew Doodle was weak and he still chose to push him, and treat him badly. That is the part that is brother’s fault. If Doodle had lived, something else would’ve probably killed him, but you never know.
In conclusion, Doodle’s death was partly brother’s fault, but it was also partly probably an inevitable ending.
I agree with Sanjna because Doodle was bound to die sooner or later, but Brother just made it quicker. It sounds heartless, but that's the way it was.
DeleteDoodle could have died the day after the storm from a disease. We'll never know. True, Brother did push Doodle to his limits, and that did ultimately bring him to his death bed, but is all the blame to be put on his shoulders? i don't think so
Doodle died because of his brother. I find that this rather obvious in many ways. Did the doctor not warn the family that Doodle should NOT run, get excited, panic, etc.? It even said in the book that “The doctor had said that he mustn't get too excited, too hot, too cold, or too tired and that he must always be treated gently. A long list of don'ts went with him…” (Hurst Unknown page number?). Doodle experienced cold rain as he was running, got excited from running, and was panicking at the idea that his older brother was abandoning him. He wasn’t treated gently either, since Brother made him row until his arms ached. Like Connor said earlier (WAY earlier), Brother caused all of this through his actions and by exposing Doodle to the cold rain. So, isn’t it Brother’s fault that Doodle died?
ReplyDeleteBut I also believe that Doodle’s death was inevitable. There were too many factors playing out when they were running in the rain. The hurricane could’ve killed Doodle even if Brother had not been there. The storm could’ve scared Doodle, causing him to panic, and it was raining (which I’m going to believe was cold rain) and the fact that he was running as fast as he could. Doodle was going to die, even if Brother did not exist.
I still believe that Doodle’s death was majorly Brother’s fault, but he just made Doodle’s death happen sooner rather than later.
Rachel He
5th Period
I, like many others believe that Doodle's death was Brother's fault. Yes, he had severe conditions which made him frail and unable to do simple tasks like run and swim, but when he defied the doctor's words and survived, it was a sign that he was meant to live. Maybe that's what Aunt Nicey believed also. Brother on the other hand, weakened him physically as well as emotionally by doing things like showing him his coffin. We can't be sure that Doodle would've died anyway. When Brother tested Doodle's limits for his personal gain, it definitely took a toll on Doodle. Doodle could have led a long life if Brother hadn't weakened him more than he already was or left him behind in the rain and made him panic.
ReplyDeleteThe blame for Doodle's death sits squarely on the shoulders of Brother. Yes, Doodle was crippled, with a weak heart that could barely keep on beating, but even though everybody thought his death was a foregone conclusion, he stubbornly persisted to live. Doodle was strong enough to avoid the mahogany coffin that was built for him, and he learns to crawl despite the doctor’s predictions that the strain on his weak heart would kill him.
ReplyDeleteWhen Brother starts taking Doodle out of the house, the doctor tells him that Doodle “mustn’t get too excited, too hot, too cold, or too tired and must always be treated gently”(Hurst 465). Unfortunately, Brother ignores all of this advice, but Doodle still manages to keep on going. As Brother teaches, or rather forces, Doodle to walk, Doodle is under great stress, falling down every time as his brother put him on his feet “a hundred times each afternoon”(Hurst 467). But his heart keeps on beating.
Doodle is strong enough to survive all these other ordeals, and it is only after extreme physical and emotional duress that he finally gives out. Doodle is made to row against the current, which, from personal experience, is a very difficult thing for a person with a normal heart to do, and then, so tired that he “[collapses] onto the mud” as soon as he steps on shore, he is forced to sprint after his brother after being abandoned in the middle of a hurricane (474). It is then, and only then, when Doodle’s heart, which so stubbornly keeps on beating throughout all of his ardors, finally stops.
Doodle could have lived a meaningful and full life, albeit with a disability, if not for the selfish actions of his brother. We saw how he persevered when he learned how to crawl and walk when no one believed in him. Perhaps, given time, he could have learned to swim and row and run like all the other boys. It is Brother’s misdirected pride that killed Doodle, not his disabilities.
Grant is from 5th period.
ReplyDeleteEric Lin 5th Period
ReplyDeleteI believe that Doodle's death was ultimately his brother's fault. His brother knew the consequences of overworking Doodle, but still decided to ignore the advice from the doctor. Doodle would have died anyway of his disabilities, but I strongly fight against the ideas that his brother had. Even though the brother was able to teach him to walk, run, swim, row, etc. the last thing he did was forget how important it is to how valuable one's life is.
Doodles death was inevitable as he grew older and would die an early age, but I believe it was still mainly his brothers fault. If I ever had a brother with disabilities, I would have never thought of doing any of the things that his brother did. I would treat him gently and carefully as to let him have better chance of living, but at the same time try to encourage him to try to stand and walk one tiny step at a time, so he can have a chance to live and strive with others.
Kainat Chaudhary 5th period
ReplyDeleteWilliam's Death was His Brother's Fault. William would have died sooner or later , but his brother made sure that it happened earlier. Brother knew exactly what he was doing when he trained William. He knew it was dangerous, and that William was fragile, but he, for his own personal gain, didn't stop training him. Brother Even acknowledged that he was guilty, so he can't use the excuse "I didn't Know!"
I wouldn't blame brother if he took the training process slowly with William and was pacient. But unfortunately, that's not the case. If Brother had not been in such a rush to get William into tip top shape, William might have still been alive. I think what killed William was that in the couple of days before he died, he was pushed too far by His Brother because somebody didn't want their "friends" to know somebody had a disabled brother. -_- That, I believe, was only part of the reason that William died. The other part was the heart attack William had when someone, again, was too much obsessed with what others thought and couldn't think of the consequences that would follow if he became too captivated by it.
I agree with you Kainat that Doodle was going to die but eventually, his older brother just sped the process and if the brother had any common sense, Doodle might have ended up living with them. Doodle might even have recovered by then and he wouldn’t have been disabled anymore. The cruelties of the brother and the way he forced Doodle to do things caused doodle too much stress that he couldn’t resist and at the end of the story, Doodle was having a nightmare scenario which was mainly caused by his brother that led to his death.
DeleteIf Doodle’s was meant to die, he would have died at birth when everybody thought he wouldn’t survive. At that time he lived and eventually progressed in life even though the progress was slow. Therefore, I think Doodles was not inevitable and that it was Brother's fault because he had attempted or planned to murder Doodle several times during the plot. Consider the moment where Brother decides to "kill [Doodle] by smothering him with a pillow" because he's ashamed of having a brother with physical disabilities and possibly mental disabilities (1.5) Even though, Brother was unable to do so, his desire depicts Brother’s self centeredness. Even later in the story, when he was a bit grown up, he did things, in all his consciousness, that obviously had a negative impact on Doodle. Although he felt the guilt of what he was doing, he did not stop.
ReplyDeleteFurthermore, the storm was just an excuse that led to Doodle's death. Doodle was Brother’s responsibility and if only he didn’t ignore him during the storm and instead went up to him and helped him through the storm, Doodle wouldn’t have died. Instead, he might be living a happy life, if only brother would have cared enough to stop for him during the storm.
I agree with Sehrish, Doodle survived when they all thought he would die, and Brother pushed him to learn how to run and swim for Brother's selfish causes. Doodle, if he had not been placed under harsh conditions, would have been able to live on. Brother is the lone reason for Doodle's death.
ReplyDeleteWas Doodle's death entirely Brother's fault? I don't necessarily think so because Doodle was born with a disability and would therefore have a harder time trying to live. Brother only sped up the process of Doodle passing away. It was bound to happen sooner or later, but Brother just made the unfortunate mistake or making it happen prior to the time it should have.
ReplyDeleteEven now, people born with disabilities die young.